Messages: 376 Location: 60602
Registered: October 2012
TWO or THREE Button
Fri, 06 April 2018 08:56
Received a great gift from a friend. She found a fabric we had both seen and admired recently and suggested I have a Jacket made. What I figured I'd do is take my favorite sport coat in to my tailor and have it turned into a duplicate with the new fabric. When I did so she laughed at the three button styling of a on old J Press coat I have had for about 20 years.
"you'll look like an old professor"
"it's a classic and I am old compared to you"
"The lapels are too wide and that third button is useless"
"your not into the whole mad men thing I take it?"
- eye roll-
Now I like what I like but it is also a gift. Do I suck it up and get a two-button to please the giver or do I remain old school New England stubborn and not fall prey to trendiness?? Im leaning towards being a gracious recipient and taking any and all suggestions.
"I won't insult your intelligence by suggesting that you really believe what you just said."
Messages: 56612 Location: Owings Mills, MD
Registered: October 2003
Current style is 2-button with narrow lapels. Since men's styles...
Fri, 06 April 2018 09:38
...change so little and so gradually, a wide-lapel sports coat or suit jacket will be immediately noticed as out-of-date.
And it IS a gift...
Thousands of candles can be lighted from a single candle, and the life of the candle will not be shortened. Happiness never decreases by being shared.
- Buddha
Messages: 9620 Location: Northern Virginia
Registered: August 2006
Two button is not trendiness...
Fri, 06 April 2018 09:52
It's actually pretty classic. One button is a trend.
If you want a classic American look, compare Brooks Brothers, Hart Schaffner Marx, & Hickey Freeman. Those are pretty much all two-button, probably 3 or so finger width lapel, jackets.
Three button is almost the "fashion alternative", i.e., trendy, look. But today's 3-buttons don't have much more vertical rise as a two-button. If yours is a high three-button, it was a trend twenty years ago...
Mark
Moderator of the TimeZone Breguet and German Brands Forums
Messages: 376 Location: 60602
Registered: October 2012
Height rule
Fri, 06 April 2018 12:20
I had no idea there was a height rule! I'm 5'9" and have been wearing a 40R in that suit for years. I don't think they even make it in a 2 button. I'll have to check the next time I am back in New Haven. Last one I bought was about 7 years ago and still looks almost new, granted I only wear a suit about 5 days a month these days.
"I won't insult your intelligence by suggesting that you really believe what you just said."
Messages: 12671 Location: Northern California
Registered: January 2006
Re: This is my usual - is it that bad?
Fri, 06 April 2018 15:16
dgfad wrote on Fri, 06 April 2018 07:18
Not my 20 year old sport coat but same maker and cut on the suit jacket
That looks like a 3/2 roll. The upper button is never meant to be buttoned and you wear the jacket no differently than a 2-button version (never button the bottom button either). You'll find this style at Brooks Brothers (look at their 1818 sack navy blazer), as well as J. Press, and I consider it a very trad look . A regular three-button jacket would have all three buttons below the lapel and I believe the top two buttons are meant to be fastened (not a style I wear). I'd discuss this jacket with your tailor rather than the giver of the fabric...
Messages: 56612 Location: Owings Mills, MD
Registered: October 2003
It's a matter of proportion more than height. >>>
Fri, 06 April 2018 16:34
A smaller, thin person can easily wear a 3-button jacket.
My family was in the men's clothing business (as I was for 10 years) and had several on-site tailors. There was no such rule.
Thousands of candles can be lighted from a single candle, and the life of the candle will not be shortened. Happiness never decreases by being shared.
- Buddha
Messages: 6727 Location: Toronto
Registered: November 2003
I say: wear whatever *suits* you best
Fri, 06 April 2018 19:46
Dear dgfad,
I think that you should be your own man. Three-button is a classic look, just as two-button is.
Stan is right: the current style is that of the two-button, thin lapel, short jacket, a.k.a. the "Mad Men/Don Draper" look. But it is always important to ask: how long will the "current" look last? For example, the preeminent Savile Row tailor Gieves & Hawkes sported that look last year, but for their spring/summer 2018 collection, have clearly gone to a wider lapel width:
Speaking specifically of the three-button jacket, you may find this 2016 interview with Tina Loder (http://tinaloder.co.uk/), a wonderful tailor also working out of Savile Row, to be enlightening:
Indeed, Loder's work (example below) shows that the three-button look, done right, is always timeless and elegant:
Finally, I agree with Stan's assertion about the appropriate body type and size for a three-button jacket. While this look definitely flatters a tall man, it is in fact ideal for any lean or thin male, regardless of their height.
My overall personal view is that one should look at one's body, and then choose classic styles and proportions that best accentuate it. Indeed, looking classic becomes more and more impressive as one gets older. If you feel that the three-button jacket brings the best out of your figure, then by all means go with that. Yes, with the three-button look, one does run the risk of looking slightly dated or stilted, but I also believe that this style projects its own unique kind of presence and power. When one is wearing a three-button, it is clear that one is wearing a suit.
Best wishes,
Raymond
p.s. I think that your lapel width looks quite traditional, not too wide (i.e., 1970s wide) at all.
Messages: 9620 Location: Northern Virginia
Registered: August 2006
Nice write up, Raymond
Fri, 06 April 2018 20:55
And, FWIW, I agree his original jacket does not look dated from the photo. You'd have to see it on him to know. The lapels appear a little high and peaked, which can be more of a fashion trend than an enduring style, but the width looks classic. Right now, with some weight issues, and always being vertically challenged, I don't think I could wear off the rack 3-button, although I certainly have in the past. Made to order or bespoke, sure, but the tailor would be adjusting the vertical rise of the front to fit my actual body.
Having said that, when you discuss a spring collection from a house like Gieves & Hawkes, I always wonder what they're actually selling to their long term customers. That no doubt depends on the customer, and one can get away with looks in the financial districts of London that just don't work on Capitol Hill, for instance. But, I suspect their bespoke line is very classic and changes little, versus a "collection" that is "current".
Mark
Moderator of the TimeZone Breguet and German Brands Forums
Messages: 6727 Location: Toronto
Registered: November 2003
Thank you, Mark
Fri, 06 April 2018 21:37
And I quite agree with you: while I obviously do not know for certain, I would think that the majority of the long-term bespoke customer base of a long-established house like Gieves & Hawkes would want a more classic look.
Messages: 376 Location: 60602
Registered: October 2012
Thank you all
Fri, 06 April 2018 23:14
Great advice. I asked her when i got home tonight if she thought that the three button or two button made a difference in my style. This was more or less her reply.
"You live in corduroy, button down collars penny loafers and horned rim glasses. From the pictures I've seem of your youth, you dressed this way since before i was born. Do you really think having a two or three button front to your jackets is going to change anything? You don't really have a style, its more of an existence you have continued since your youth.
Me- sooooo do i get a two or a three button?
Her- Buy me dinner i really don't care.
Me- What are you in the mood for...
"I won't insult your intelligence by suggesting that you really believe what you just said."
Messages: 9108 Location: at the crossroads
Registered: November 2006
Do a "three roll two" for the best of both worlds
Mon, 09 April 2018 10:45
This is a classic Neapolitan jacket style with 3 buttons and lapels shaped to roll over the top one for a 2 button look. Most of my jackets are made this way, as were many of James Bond's :)
But your body shape and how you carry yourself really determine the most comfortable and flattering styles for you. Your height & weight and their distribution may make a traditional 3 button style the best choice for you - a good tailor can help you make the decision. But fashion alone should not be your primary guide unless you're ready to switch wardrobes every time societal whim tells you to do so.
There is no pleasure worth forgoing for an extra three years in the geriatric ward.
Messages: 376 Location: 60602
Registered: October 2012
Re: It's an integral part of the Neapolitan style.
Mon, 09 April 2018 17:39
Many thanks I showed my tailor today a design similar to that and he said it was very Neopolitan!!! small world.
I am going on 40+ years of the 3/2 roll. It all started when my mother took me to JPress at 13 for my first "real sport coat" to attend a private school. We weren't wealthy people just dysfunctional. I had to attend this school after being thrown out of a several public ones. I was thrown out of the private one a year later but have stuck with the 3/2 roll ever since.
(6 years later I gave away an overcoat from the same store on a cold snowy night in Boston in my final attempt to find the oblivion that eluded me since "I gave my first coat away" at the age of 12. Haven't had to give away a coat or wear long sleeves on a hot summer's day since I was 19)
"I won't insult your intelligence by suggesting that you really believe what you just said."
Messages: 9108 Location: at the crossroads
Registered: November 2006
I was pushed into style at 12 by my older sister.
Tue, 10 April 2018 14:14
She went away to Barnard in 1957 (I was 11) and soon afterward made it her mission in life to ensure that her brother would grow up to be a proper man. Jacob Reed (the J Press of Philadelphia) was where she outfitted me first with a herringbone tweed jacket, cavalry twill pants, and a yellow Gant button down oxford cloth shirt. For the duration of her academic career (she ended up with both Masters and PhD), I was showered with everything from the right books to the right clothes to the right social advice. The only thing that stuck was a love of espresso.
Because of her influence, I wore "tweedy" clothes for several years and was happy enough with the look and feel. But one day in my early 30s, my salesman at Boyd's in Philly asked me if I'd consider looking at Italian stuff instead. When I asked why, he responded, "...because it will fit you, and what you've been wearing doesn't!" It turns out that the drop in British style conservative suits was about 4", and I wear a 42 long jacket. So they had to take in every pair of suit pants I got to fit my 33 inch waist, along with major alterations to the jackets. And the slacks I got were all too baggy. I put on an Italian suit and it fit like bespoke right off the rack....and the rest is history.
Over the years, I've amassed a pretty fine wardrobe all of which still fits very well. Taking care of good stuff will allow it to last for decades - and if it's not highly stylized, it's timeless. So those 3-into-2s are still great. Love 'em!!
There is no pleasure worth forgoing for an extra three years in the geriatric ward.
There is no pleasure worth forgoing for an extra three years in the geriatric ward.
